Tessa Kriesel Shares her Open Source Community Journey
Demo: 00:02 Hello and welcome to another episode of the BoldGrid bold life podcast. I'm your host Mike Demo
Jesse: 00:08 and I am Jesse Owens.
Demo: 00:11 So Jesse recovered from Berlin yet,
Jesse: 00:13 uh, more or less. I'm still, I've still got a little tickle in my throat from the concrete crowd that I came down with this weekend. But yeah, for the most part back on the up and up.
Demo: 00:23 I'm telling you man, you gotta have immunity stuff when you go to the go to the conferences or at least hand sanitizer or both.
Jesse: 00:28 Yeah, I did hand sanitizer. Who knows? I mean there's a, there's a lot of people from a lot of places in the world there. Okay,
Demo: 00:36 fair enough. Well, our guest this week is Tessa. The um, your titles changed a few times. Tessa, I was gonna say the evangelists from Pantheon, but you've got a promotion since you started. Um, I believe or I always lose track cause you're doing so many cool things there. So what is your title right now at Pantheon? I apologize for not having it exactly right, but I see you doing so many things right.
Tessa Kriesel: 01:00 Yeah, yeah, no problem. At all? Uh, I think it like, it could be jack of all trades cause I feel like I get involved with like a million different angles at Pantheon as well. Anytime I can can provide valuable feedback. Um, but my official title is developer outreach manager.
Demo: 01:15 Ah, cool. Um, how long have you been at Pantheon for?
Tessa Kriesel: 01:19 Um, about two and a half years now.
Demo: 01:21 Excellent. Um, and you actually got some exciting news. You're going to a new organization, um, in a few weeks, correct?
Tessa Kriesel: 01:29 I am. I actually start next week I will be the developer community manager. So a slightly different title, but kind of the same idea over at CircleCI.
Demo: 01:40 Oh, excellent. Um, so you're working in distributed and remote for them.
Tessa Kriesel: 01:43 Yep, absolutely. So you know, as you know, Mike and Jesse, not sure if, you know, I live in rural Minnesota, um, and really enjoy my ability to have land and be outside and have a garden on but still get to have a really awesome, exciting, uh, tech role with, with great company.
Demo: 02:00 That is awesome. So excited for you. Congratulations on that. Thank you. So we've known each other for a while. Um, you know, you're probably one of the people I've known longest in the WordPress community, eight, besides some of the other, uh, people that are also, you know, in the WordPress community that, you know, we're in Joomla! and things, but we first connected because you started the Joomla! user group in Minneapolis and then we ran into each other when I was working with, uh Hah Ryan from happy dog to do the first Joomla! Day, Minnesota back, I don't know how many years ago. And your company sponsored, I believe you were at a like a promotional products company at the time or something or marketing company. And we kinda hit it off. So what's interesting is your story about how you kind of started from where you started, um, making, you know, and then the different roles in different agencies and then jumping to different CMS is, I think it's an interesting conversation to learn how open source has kind of changed your career.
Demo: 03:09 Because I don't think it's a stretch for me to say, cause I say this, that if it wasn't for Joomla! and that, you know, as you're a gateway drug into the open source community, you probably wouldn't have the role you have today because it all kind of builds up, builds on it. You know, your experience at Pantheon probably helped you for circle. Sia is easy. They helped you get ready for your next role that you're going to. Um, and then your role at the agency, which used WordPress guide, you know, word craft, which made sense to go over to Pantheon, uh, in addition to obviously your great natural skills, um, and charisma. So how do you kind of, when you look at your, your career, how do you kinda look at it, you know, was that a plan or did it just kind of happen? Cause I know what the answer is for me,
Tessa Kriesel: 03:52 it totally just kind of happened. Uh, like as you know, you know, Mike, I definitely started out in the Joomla! community and, and it really kinda came from like a scratch my own itch kind of situation. And that I wanted to create a guitar hero website. I was like obsessed with the target. Um, I'm trying to play at Word Camp Phoenix by the way, like a few months ago and I'm not good at it anymore, which is quite unfortunate. Um, but I wanted to current like a tournament site back then. That was not something that was that like readily available in the actual game. And so the uh, kind of going through like, you know, I believe it was like fantastico that install that you get with CPL and trying to figure out like, yeah,
Demo: 04:30 yeah, exactly. Fantastico. Yeah. Fantastico. Okay. Which, uh, now is a Softaculous but fantastico was the first one I did the same thing. I just was going through the CMS because I'm installing them.
Tessa Kriesel: 04:42 Exactly. So I tried, I think I tried the.net nuke I think. And I didn't like it. Uh, I feel like I tried another one and, and Joomla! was the lawyer and I was like, oh cool. Cause really all I cared about was like user validation and just like Kinda kickstarting like what it meant to like even write a programming language. Um, cause before that it was like mainly html and CSS that I had been writing. Uh, so, you know, Doug kind of spun up a site, set it all up, started getting involved and um, yeah I think that Joomla! really played like a huge role into me getting into tech period. Um, because I really wasn't sure I could build out html and CSS websites again. That was still all self taught. Um, but Juma really opened up the opportunity for me to try to look for actual clients and try to, um, have that need to start to learn Joomla! and then finally start taking on work and then Kinda just snowballed from there of getting the experience. And you know, I did a lot of freelancing and ended up doing a few contracts with a couple of agencies that were in the twin cities who needed Joomla! work. Um, again, remote cause I lived in rural Minnesota. Um, but yeah, it really just kinda kickstarted off my career. That's for sure.
Demo: 05:46 Excellent. So you, did you go to, um, uh, um, any postsecondary education like, uh, did you go to college? Um, I, I don't mean this as a slur. I'm, I'm genuinely asking because my son, you know, I started going to the art institutes for interactive media and Web design and I left after a year because they were just teaching me things that I already Kinda knew cause I was self-taught, mainly html, CSS, a little PHB. Um, I started with PHP nuke and then went over to Bombo and then obviously Joomla! from there. So, um, did you go to a, any sort of university program?
Tessa Kriesel: 06:25 No, I didn't. Not In this category. Anyways, I first started going out to school, uh, to school for criminal justice. Uh, I wanted to be an investigator and I did that cause I always want to be doing something new. I need my life to be constantly changing and offering new, new challenges. Set turned out after I went to school for about six to 12 months and did a lot of volunteering. The big and investigator was not going to get me there. There was way more paperwork than there was, uh, interesting new things to do. Um, so started getting into business management, um, and you know, went that route. I always had a dream to own a restaurant someday and that's still on my bucket list. Uh, not something I'm probably going to do for awhile. That might be like my retirement job as I call it.
Tessa Kriesel: 07:04 Uh, but you know, I started going to college actually all online and that was around the time, I would say was probably a year or two. Um, after I first started looking into Joomla!, maybe, I don't remember. It's been a long time. Uh, and same situation for me. I was learning things that I already knew. Like they were teaching me how to build a website in html using tables. And it was like, no, no, no. I'm new to this and I'm teaching myself and I can already tell you right now, this is not the way to go.
Demo: 07:29 Yeah, yeah. Table tables are fa tabular data.
Tessa Kriesel: 07:34 Exactly. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Demo: 07:38 Well, I think that's very interesting because I think especially in the u s there is this, uh, there's this myth, uh, and I, you know, please don't, you know, please don't think that I'm saying, uh, education's bad. I've gone to tea. I've, you know, I do education for education's sake. I always am learning. I'm always doing courses. Um, I'm doing a lot of continuing ed stuff. Conferences sometimes on my own dime. They try to learn. So I'm not saying that I'm self, uh, you know, education is bad. But I think there's this myth that of traditional four year university is the only way to get success. And I find so many people that are in like our space that went to school for something completely different. And that's okay. I mean, it's perfectly fine to have a bachelor's or a associate or a master's in whatever, and you use it for something else.
Demo: 08:32 But a lot of times you just end up with a lot of debt and you're not in, you find that maybe that's not the role you want to be in. And sometimes people get really surprised when they realize that I never finished my bachelor program. I want to finish at one day, go back to it. But I've been in this community long enough and I've been fortunate to have good opportunities. And the best thing I've ever heard is old manager at an agency. It was a, uh, the agency in Blaine, Minnesota where we first met. Um, I was at, he said that a degree shows you can finish something and that's basically it so you know it, but if you have other experience or stuff to point to, you know, it's fine. Now there are sort of size companies that maybe won't look at you unless you just really, um, have a good connection. But that being said, for the role of the community role that I'm in and you know, similar to the roles here and uh, obviously I don't, I think our experience and being in the community at this point, I don't think it would really matter if I get my bachelor's or not. I still want to do it one day just to do it. But it'd be more just to do it for myself.
Tessa Kriesel: 09:41 Yeah, I totally agree. Um, I think that, you know, before I came to Pantheon, I was actually at general mills and so I consider them like pretty like a large seal company and I don't technically have a degree. I've got a start of a degree in multiple locations, um, and in multiple categories, but I never finished. And one of my kind of bucket list things has always been to finish college. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, why? Like why would I put myself in debt? Like why would I go and do this? I feel like the things that I've learned by, by doing and experiencing has been much stronger than any experience I'm ever going to get. Um, you know, by actually going to college, I think if I went back to school it would be because I've had this idea that when I turned 40, depending on where my life is at, which is only about six years away, uh, that I really want to be a veterinarian one day.
Tessa Kriesel: 10:28 And the college is like an eight year long stance. So I'm like, if I don't do it by the time I'm 40, I'm probably not going to do it. So I think if I went back to school I would be, because I'm trying to balance like a career or a job that I have now and also go back to school so that my retirement job as you noticed, I've many plans for my retirement jobs would be to be a veterinarian and just spend time with animals. So that's my only plans for going back to school anyways. But yeah, I totally agree. I think if you can get into this space and um, and there's so many ways to do it. Like my step son right now, he is 17, um, and he wants to go to school for computer science and him and I have been talking about like what angles and what, what degree you should he go after. Does he want to look at like a boot camp to kick off some of his learning and figure out if that's really like where his passion is at or does he want to dedicate to a bachelor's degree? Um, there's just so many different ways that you can get involved in tech nowadays.
Jesse: 11:17 And I think there's a lot of ways that you can hang out with animals without going to medical school for it to, you know, my experience was very much the same. Um, when I first went to college, right after high school, um, I originally went for electrical engineering and I quickly realized I was not as good at math as I thought I was. And so I began my journey and you know, I basically start, I was a janitor for several years and then I was a janitor for the u s Antarctic program and got to go to Antarctica as a janitor. And then I came and started a company, uh, my own company doing carpet cleaning. And that's how I was first introduced to WordPress was for, uh, basically doing my own company. Um, and I think despite the fact that I was just a janitor, I think learning, um, you know what it was like to really, uh, just work hard and grind and you know, have to really struggle to stay alive. You know, those are valuable skills as well. Um, and it, you know, there's something that may, you may or may not be able to learn from college.
Demo: 12:23 [inaudible]
Tessa Kriesel: 12:23 yeah. Like I've spent a lot of my early career in restaurant management and before that, like bartending and waitressing and I know that they're great jobs to get you through college, but honestly I think they're really great jobs for anyone to just ever have because that like hospitality and that customer service angle is really super important to build on as you're starting to grow and become, you know, more of a career driven person.
Demo: 12:46 Yeah, definitely. And Jesse, I don't ever want you to, you know, say just a janitor or anything again cause quite frankly, sometimes you know, some of these positions that people look down upon, you know, that are beneath them. Especially if you have your own business, which you did some of the most successful people I know. I mean, I had a client that sold yarn online and I was like, I just don't get it. And she was making six figures a month, top line revenue obviously, uh, just in selling yarn on her little a Shopify website. So it's just the skills are great. Like I was, I started in hospitality, right. I had opportunity to go work for Disney and then I became a trainer and um, learned a lot of good guest service skills and you know, that got me into some tech and things as well. So. Excellent. Um,
Jesse: 13:44 that is quite a yarn.
Speaker 4: 13:49 That was awesome. Good Times. Anyway. Okay, so you,
Demo: 14:00 how did you, uh, so obviously you kind of got one went from one thing to another. How did you do the networking for yourself to kind of get to the roles you had now? Did you just apply for the jobs? Were they referrals, you know, did one thing help lead onto the other? How if somebody is currently maybe in a role and maybe you know, involved in the WordPress community, what can they do to, you know, maybe they're not looking, but they want to, you know, get their name out there and you know, at least interact with people so that if a good opportunity opens up, maybe they could be told about it, et cetera. So we're going to, how was the, how did you kind of do go climb the corporate w the lattice? I don't call it a ladder because it's very lateral that, uh, that I've been doing personally, but through different organizations. So what are your tips if somewhat the, how can somewhere can use the opensource community, um, as a career thing, but have that maybe not be the goal, you know, either nobody likes those people saying, Hey, hire me. But it kind of happens naturally once people get to know you and know your skills.
Tessa Kriesel: 15:06 Yeah. So I think, um, you know, like, as you know, lived in rural Minnesota, I moved to the twin cities and I did that because I wanted to figure out like what I didn't know. So I knew the skills and the, and the technical abilities that I taught myself and I figured out on the Internet, but that didn't mean that I knew how people were working in teams or how they were collaborating on projects with clients and various things like that. Um, so when I moved down to the twin cities, I ended up getting involved with an organization that's kind of not on the most positive a note right now, but was really great at the time and that's girl develop it. Uh, and when I got involved, I, I really didn't plan on it being something that was going to help guide my career or help take me somewhere further.
Tessa Kriesel: 15:47 Um, I really just did it because I could relate to those people who are trying to teach themselves how to code. Um, I didn't have girl develop it and honestly, when I was learning how to code, there was not as many of these like awesome online, like tutorials and walkthroughs that they have now. Uh, and so I was really passionate about sharing what I knew and allowing them to be able to feel empowered and possibly learn how to code much faster than I taught myself. Um, and by doing that, I actually ended up growing my network, uh, pretty largely and it wasn't intentional. It definitely didn't happen, um, on purpose. But I think that's what ended up leading to my role. It is what led to my role at general mills because I met someone who took an internship there and she ended up going on full time and she happened to be someone who taught classes with me as well.
Tessa Kriesel: 16:30 Uh, and she was like, Hey, you should apply there. And, and then that teaching and some of that mentorship and some of the public speaking skills were things that Pantheon was looking for when they were looking for someone. And so I put those skills played really well into, into that needed. And I think the circles, the opportunity is just been a really great opportunity that I definitely have pantheon to think because I was empowered and given the opportunity to be able to expand and build our community programs and offerings there. So even though none of it was strategic and none of it was planned, I think everything really does play a spot or a role. Um, I'm, I'm one of those types of people where I do feel like there is a, not necessarily a concrete plan, but I do feel like things happen for a reason and, and um, you know, I don't know what's behind that and I don't have exact specifications on how I feel that way, but I do feel that there are things in my life that have led me to the next thing and somehow it just feels like fate and it feels like the right thing at that time.
Tessa Kriesel: 17:24 Um, so I would say that, uh, just coming back to like the girl develop it lesson is like really just giving back. It's like giving back to those people who are trying to learn and giving back to those people who might be new to the community. Um, essentially like sharing your knowledge and sharing the things that you know, so that others can learn from that and start to expand and grow into whatever it is that they're looking to do.
Demo: 17:46 So basically, we've talked to a lot of different people this show and we hear a lot of the same thing, which is, you know, give of yourself and try to help other people. And it always comes back multiple fold. I always use the example of John Rampton, you know, obvious eight, Oh, a Po, you've met him a couple of times tests I believe, cause he's spoken, um, at Minnesota and he always that big, uh, online influencer writes for time, et Cetera. And he always said for every 10 people he helps, one of them will equal x number of dollars of business for every hundred people. He helps illegal x number of dollars. And every thousand people they help sell l equal like a million dollars or whatever. So he tries to go in to be as helpful and give assistance to as many people as possible. And I've tried to do that, um, in different ways.
Demo: 18:35 And you could do that through volunteering on teams, either in the WordPress community or locally, uh, through different organizations like a hack the hood, a girl develop it or every community has plenty of options depending on what you want to do. And I do believe that does kind of come back and add assistance. I mean Jesse your role, you spent a lot of your time volunteering on the dot. I'm on the training team for WordCamp central and then through that experience you got to meet other people in the WordPress community and now you're their community manager at BoldGrid. I am not sure if that would have happened if you wouldn't have spent that time on your own, getting to know the community as intimately as you did. Um, not to say you don't have the skills cause definitely you do. I am sure that it wouldn't tend to happen.
Tessa Kriesel: 19:27 It's like crazy when I happens. We can all have like a knack or like have good skills, like I don't know where it's come from. And I really honestly, I feel like it's, it's totally a gift, but I can walk into a room and not have any friends and leave that room with like multiple new friends and maybe we're not close friends but we're at least like, hey, I know that person now. We're, hey, they spent the time to get to know me. And that's just like a gift that I feel like I have. Um, and it's, it's really like a very helpful gift to have that in. Jesse, it sounds like that's definitely something that has helped you as well.
Speaker 5: 19:56 Oh, certainly. Yeah.
Demo: 19:58 So looking forward with your new role, um, what are you planning to do to stay involved in, uh, different open source communities? Are you going to, you're going to be exposed to some different open source communities, I imagine with this new organization, but I'm going to stay involved with WordPress. I'm obviously you're the, this is your last year as the lead organizer, WordCamp Minneapolis, correct.
Tessa Kriesel: 20:22 I am actually not the lead organizer where it can't Minneapolis this year with my move to rural Minnesota, it made things a little more difficult and I ended up recruiting someone to help, which has been awesome cause she was bringing a little bit new light into it. Um, I'm actually on the WordCamp US organizing team as the programming lead. Um, so it's allowed me to be able to, yes, it'd be able to dedicate a little more time to WordCamp us, uh, instead of, uh, you know, reading a whole local camp, which is a little bit harder sometimes I feel like. Excellent. Yeah. But to get to your question, sorry, I didn't actually answer your question there. Um, I, I'm, I'm really hoping to stay apart of the word press as well as the Drupal community, um, with my role at Pantheon, you know, and I did some dribble work, um, a while ago back when I was, you know, kind of after I was learning Jim, I really got into like WordPress and Drupal and Joomla! at that time.
Tessa Kriesel: 21:13 Um, and so, you know, I had some exposure to it, but definitely been more a part of the community due to my role at Pantheon. Um, and I love both communities and I really don't want to leave those communities, at least not completely. I don't want to just disappear. So, you know, my plan is probably to try to maintain and go to like the staple events when I can. So we're camp us. I still have yet to go to WordCamp Europe, which this year it was by choice cause I've been trying to ramp down on some of my travel and actually dedicate to the programs that I'm responsible for building and things. Um, you know, and I definitely am going to Drupal con next year because it's in Minneapolis, so it's local. Um, you know, and outside of that I really want to continue to be a part of those, those communities. I know that currently circles the, I a really focuses on kind of that Dev ops space. Um, but I also see a major need for them, especially in WordPress. We, um, there are many developers in WordPress who have not been exposed to some of the advanced development tooling and testing and some of the awesome things that, uh, can really take their career and their projects to the next level. Uh, so I'm still very passionate about sharing that, uh, in some of these communities as well.
Speaker 6: 22:18 Okay,
Demo: 22:18 excellent. So we're getting kind of to the end of the time. Do you have any like very memorable board camp stories or a story that you want to share? Like a favorite memory of a WordCamp? We usually ask this of every guest.
Tessa Kriesel: 22:33 Yeah. Um, I think, okay. I'm trying to think. So I'm trying to think if it was my first word camp ever. So as much as I've been in the WordPress space for, you know, quite a few years before I even started at Pantheon, I never actually got involved in the community. I didn't realize that there was this awesome community behind it. Um, I think it might've been my first word camp and it was word Camp d c, don't quote me cause it might not have been my first, but I feel like it is long story short, it was word Camp Dcs, First Word Camp, uh, in that location. Um, so we had a lot of firsts together there and I met a lot of really awesome people at that word camp and I don't know exactly what it was about that camp if it was like the organizers. And they did a really great job about making sure that everyone had opportunities to get to know each other. Um, or if it was a, the fact that it was my first one and I realized how great they are. Um, or if it was just the awesome people that I met and was able to spend time with there. But WordCamp DC and I believe this is 2017, um, is by far and will probably continue to be my favorite word, camp.
Demo: 23:35 Excellent. I've never been to WordCamp DC, but I believe it was last year or the year before, I was able to go to DC for, um, a work event, um, which is hosting networking that travels around to different cities, which unfortunately doesn't exist anymore. It was a great opportunity to go. Um, and my favorite part of d c, uh, besides a scene, uh, the, the outside of the White House, um, just cause I was kind of a building that was kind of a cool building to see, uh, with lots of security. Um, but we're not going to get into a y. Um, uh, was the fact that was the freedom of the press museum, the Journalism Museum. And in front they had, uh, they had the daily newspaper front page for every single ma main paper from every state. So Alaska to Alaska had like the front page from the Anchorage Herald, which I don't know if that's actually the main paper in Alaska, but you get the idea like, so Minnesota was the Star Tribune and etc. And it was just so interesting to see how the front page of every state was covering the same stories but so differently, which, um, kind of reminded me to, you know, maybe look at multiple sources and not just, you know, one specific source. Um, because there were a lot of the times just talking about the same story, but I found that very interesting. Um, and now it's a great museum to go to if you ever get a chance. And I, there's a Wolfgang puck restaurant inside of it too, so
Tessa Kriesel: 25:04 awesome. I have been to DC a number of times, like PHP world happens at DC. Um, and then what else was there? There's another conference that was there. I love DC and I can totally relate to um, the like White House thing. And I don't, for some reason I think it's maybe like my original interest in criminal justice, but I really have like a, um, appreciation and like major respect for those that, um, you know, serve in like a protection type of a role. And so I was like more, uh, excited about like competing the secret service people that I was about actually seeing the White House. Um, but yeah, I would have never checked about that museum ought to go there yet.
Demo: 25:43 Yeah. The A, so I went to the National Geographic Society Museum, which is just, uh, interesting and learn about the history cause they do a lot more work than just publish a magazine. Um, and I don't think a lot of people realize the history of it. So, and that's why it's a free museum to go to, I believe. Um, that one was, but uh, yeah. Speaking of secret service and things, um, and word camp, uh, we're camp us in Philly. Uh, myself and a couple of the coworkers, we went to see the liberty bell and obviously it's a national park and the bell's owned by the city, but the park is a national park. So this park rangers and you see Constitution Hall and all that. Um, I made a joke about poachers and, Oh, do you have to deal with a lot of poachers and assists the national park? You're a park ranger. And he's, they were less than impressed.
Tessa Kriesel: 26:35 Yeah. They weren't overly impressed with my appreciation of them. Uh, you know, they were kind back to me, but they were like, okay, I'm done talking to you now. You can, you can move on. But that's okay. Totally get it. They've got a stressful job. But yeah, these, these are definitely an interesting place.
Demo: 26:53 Uh, last weird fact since we've mentioned the Liberty Bell, um, which as that's fairly not DC, but similar. Right. Um, is that for the centennial? For the US, they made a replica liberty bell for every state in the union. But, uh, Penn, Philly, Pennsylvania didn't want one because they already had, they have like, we have the original. So while Disney Disney took it and bought it, and the Liberty Bell that you see in Disney world and magic kingdom and Liberty Square is actually the 50th replica that was made for the centennial because the state, you know, they made one for the state of the home of it and they were like, we don't want the replica. We got the real thing. So fun fact.
Tessa Kriesel: 27:36 That's awesome. You would totally know. The Disney facts you're like my go to if I need to know Disney things.
Demo: 27:42 Yeah. Well we are running out of time. So Tessa, how can people follow you personally on the interwebs? And, um, can you just give a quick, uh, you know, elevator pitch of what Pantheon provides if people maybe aren't familiar with their services?
Tessa Kriesel: 27:55 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Tessa k 22, like all over the Internet, so Twitter, Instagram, linkedin. Um, if you just Google me, you'll find me all over the place. Um, and Pantheon offers like what I was super excited to be able to get on a tee. And for this often product where they offer managed WordPress solution that is, is definitely tailored and built more for developers. Um, although, you know, lots of people can benefit marketers, things like that. Um, but their tooling was really built by developers. And so there's a command line tool. There's, you know, it's totally get based. So there's, you know, there's get branches, there's what we call multi Deb's, which are environments that are based on a get branch, um, which is something that's unique to their offering that other WordPress publishing providers haven't offered yet. So, um, really cool tool and it's free to sign up for a sandbox account. So just go check it out, sign up for one. And why don't you tell me what you think.
Demo: 28:48 Excellent. Well, you can follow myself on Twitter at NP Mike,
Jesse: 28:53 I am a on Twitter at Jesse C. Owens.
Demo: 28:57 You can make sure to go to bulger.com to get all of our latest news and releases as well as updates on any of our plugins or support. And you can follow BoldGrid on firstname.lastname@example.org
Jesse: 29:13 slash groups slash EEG team.
Demo: 29:17 Please make sure to like, comment and subscribe to wherever your favorite podcasts are found or just swipe on the logo of wherever you're listening now. Thank you so much and we'll see you next week.